"Money has lost its connection with social reality." Interview with Generation Basic Income, part two

In the second part of the interview with members of the Swiss Generation Basic Income, we discuss the effects of introducing an unconditional income, how it will be financed, criticisms of the concept, inequality, and the ugly nature of current policies on welfare.

You can read the first part here

Enno Schmidt, the co-founder of Generation Basic Income, has said a basic income could be “one of the landmark historical moments, like the abolition of slavery or the civil rights movement”. What do you think will be the social effects of introducing an unconditional income?

Che Wagner: To have a right for an income that will make possible a life in dignity without condition is a landmark historical moment for sure! Primarily it represents a question to each and every one of us: do you trust others? Introducing a basic income will pose the question of trust in a fundamental way: what will you do if your income is assured?

Socially this means nothing less than that I am fully accountable for my deeds in the sphere of what I contribute to others through my work, but not in a juridical sense, because the basic income is unconditional. There won’t be a penalty for those who are not ready to contribute anything. But in the social sphere I will have to stand by the things I do for others and there are no excuses anymore, such as I have to do this because I need an income.. etc.

In the aftermath of financial crisis, we are constantly told that public spending cuts are unavoidable and that we must “live with our means”. A basic income is going in the opposite direction. To mouth a hoary old objection, where would the money come from to fund a basic income?

Enno Schmidt: This is a matter of education. Money is created where goods and services are produced that are for sale. Otherwise they could not be bought. What can be produced, can also be financed. We have no shortage of goods. There is not only enough money, there is too much money. But a lot of money has lost its connection with social reality. We do not know what the economy is, what money is, what taxes are. We think the economy is there to make money-profits, that money is a possession of which one can never have enough, and taxes should be avoided. That's just silly. The economy is there to satisfy the needs of others, to do something that benefits others. Money is a legal means to regulate the exchange between performance and need. Taxes are what we pay for the work to which we assign to the state - work, which is not paid by the individual consumer, but work we want to fund as a community. The tax is a division of the process to be generated socially, in part by the private and non-profit sectors. When you buy a computer, you don’t pay for the one you get, but the next, which is already produced. The one you took already was paid for, otherwise it could not be there. And what accounts for its price, is not the stuff that will be available at your desk, but the income of all involved in the production process, so that a computer can be made ​​and given to you. These is also the source of the income of the people who run the government and non-profit work.

All money goes into income. That's one thing. And a second is that there is so much work, as there are people. The income enables you to work. It makes you free, it allows you not to just take care of yourself but also to do something for others, and to live by what others do. This is the situation today. But we still think like it was 150 years ago. Work cannot be paid, otherwise you can buy people. Actually, slavery has already been abolished. But not in our habits.

 Where will the money come from for the unconditional basic income? It is already there. We share sufficient goods. We all have more or less an income sufficient to live on. This level of income will be made unconditional. How does it work? This is a consideration for economists. When all have an unconditional basic income, prices rise or wages fall. Most likely, wages and benefits will decrease on average to about the level of basic income. Because everyone now already comes with an income to work. Income from labour is relieved of the task of ensuring the existence of people. Wage negotiations will take place as free negotiations between free people.

There are objections to basic income from the Right and Left. Conservatives says that an unconditional income would lead most people to sleep late, drink, take drugs and not do anything useful. Some left-wingers say it is unfair to allow able-bodied people not to work while leaving the burden of producing necessary goods on others. How do you respond to these criticisms?

CW: Regarding the arguments from the Right: basic income is an arduous idea and initiative as well and is not about being lazy. The primary question for everyone is: what are you going to do when your existential income is secured? To keep up at this question will be hard and everyone has to deal with it individually. Some may go to sleep late as well but that’s within their own freedom – I don’t see a problem or even an economic issue there.

Regarding the arguments of the Left: with the basic income, people are free to contribute to society what they individually find necessary. For the first time in history that will convert to something we could call a free market situation, where everyone has the ability to say “No”, because their basic needs are unconditionally covered. To produce necessary goods is a question of the need of these very goods or services. Why wouldn’t these goods be produced anymore? It will definitely have an impact on the prices of these goods and services in the sense that quality producing will get cheaper in comparison to quantity and profit-oriented producing.

Large parts of the Left fear the shift of power to the individual who is enabled to say “No” by the existence of the basic income and thereby forget this very shift used to be the one political agenda in their initial formation a century ago. The big difference now is: it’s not a class war anymore but a simple step to empower everyone economically, whatever social class he/she may belong to.

ES: The Left and the Right are used to talking about others and to judge without touching their own heads. Perhaps the conservatives would only sleep late and take drugs, and the leftists live by the actions of others. Today, many have switched off at their workplaces, today more and more people are mentally ill and take legal drugs that are already prescribed to children. There is no way forward, without thinking again.

Does Generation Basic Income have any other objections to capitalism or conventional Parliamentary democracy? I note that you are working directly through a referendum, rather than through the Parliamentary system. Is a basic income sufficient or does society need other changes as well?

CW: I do not want to generalise here because every nation and cultural sphere has its own history. But the idea of the discussion or even implementation of an unconditional basic income is not limited to any borders; it’s a global idea in a globalised world.

I don’t object to capitalism in general because I don’t see a problem in concentrating forces by raising capital to be able to make things and ideas possible – that’s a great thing! But we’re in a situation now, where capital has too much weight and people are controlled by it and can’t live in dignity anymore. The unconditional basic income is able to change this situation not by destroying capitalism but by humanising it.

As you can easily observe, in many countries within the EU plus the USA, Parliamentary democracy is stuck in a deep crisis. In my opinion, the idea of a basic income doesn’t work in a top-down setting and it is only natural that the movement is diverse and carried by people like you and me. Strongly Parliamentary systems and political spheres controlled by parties won’t be able to keep up with such a movement. If people are able to take into consideration individual economic power and self-determination, the question of political rights and power is never far away.

There is another forthcoming referendum in Switzerland, on whether to limit pay differentials in companies to a 12:1 ratio. Does Generation Basic Income overlap with the people behind the “1:12 initiative”?

CW: The “1:12 initiative” is an interesting but rather conventional leftist proposal. We are in contact with some of the initiators and talking about similarities and differences but from the basic mindset, the two initiatives are still very far from each other. The basic income does not want to take anything away from anyone by law. On the one hand, “1:12”, like our initiative is the attempt to socialise our society. But the basic income asks: can you trust your neighbour enough to give him an unconditional income without forcing him to work for it? It can be seen as a very liberal initiative because it does not dictate by law as to what you're going to do with that income in any way. It is not predictable what will happen with this new freedom and that’s the root of all the fear of opponents, including the leftists behind “1:12”. Still, I would definitely count the “1:12” group as part of the Basic Income Generation because they are doing something they really want to do out of an inner decision – in that case being politically active!

Marilola Wili: Those two ideas are not standing in concurrence but do not overlap either. They are two totally different approaches. The “1:12 intiative” wants an income upper limit and to set a ratio by law. The idea of an unconditional basic income wants to empower everyone and ask herself/himself what she/he wants and what she/he is able to do.

ES: Also, the difference is that 1:12  just throws a stick into the gearbox. The thought is good. It is very easy to say this is justice. But nothing moves, because income is only reduced and comes from the side of an isolated regulation. It is one measure. The basic income doesn’t come from the side of a regulation, a measure, a smug sense of justice. As Che said, the basic income is not directed against capitalism, it is just better than that. It allows people to do better and to develop it further.

I wanted to ask about the 1:12 initiative because there is growing recognition, in the UK (as well as in other countries) of the damage caused by inequality. There was book published in the UK a few years ago, called The Spirit Level, that showed that social problems such as mental illness, poor educational attainment, violence, obesity, teenage conceptions etc were invariably worse in countries of high inequality. Also, I think you can trace a lot of causes of financial crisis to too much money at the top of society – money that goes into restructuring companies, mergers and acquisitions, and speculation in shares or commodities like food. Is not inequality – as opposed to solely providing an unconditional income for people – a problem that needs to be addressed?

ES: Yes, inequality has all the effects you mention. But why does nothing change? We know everything. While I am writing these words 20 children will die of hunger. Why do all the good intentions change nearly nothing? We have organisations for everything but something is missing. The old forms of justice do not apply, they have brought us to this point.

It will take a lot more than proposals such as the 1:12 Initiative. It is a distraction and not just because those in power will prevent it. But because the thought has no substance. You might think you could reach 1:12, it is so simple and direct, but it has no reality. The unconditional basic income looks like it is just imagination, but it is very real. Basic income is not against anybody or anything. It eliminates poverty, it does not stick to hatred of the rich. It’s a trap, to always look on the rich. With a basic income, a lot more people can work to ensure that inequality decreases. Then you can look at why some people are so rich, then you can go to the source. Then you can look at the causes and see what to do differently. But that only works if people are strengthened.

In the UK and elsewhere, the political debate on “welfare” is fixated on imposing ever more punitive penalties on benefit claimants, and that includes disabled people, for not seeking work with enough ardour. Hunger and destitution are resulting and more and more people rely on food banks. Does a basic income have the potential to bring about a paradigm shift into this ugly debate?

CW: You’re speaking of one of the core shifts that has to take place, whether a basic income is introduced or not. The problem here is a lack of income and not a lack of work or employment. People need an income in order to be productive and to contribute for others by work. It’s a simple rule you can test on yourself: when is it you’re more productive? In a state of pressure and stress or rather in a state of ease and security?

MW: If the basic needs of everyone are met unconditionally, the stigma of being poor, unemployed or providing care-work would swiftly disappear. That’s only one reason why the unconditional basic income would change a lot in these problems.

ES: We are now in a time of old, outdated thinking and old ideas are becoming more violent because they feel they are no longer correct. But this thinking wants to stay with all its might. It tortures people, it can only assert itself at the expense of others in its falsehood. The backlash can be bloody. We hope not. The unconditional basic income is a way to channel the pent-up energy in a positive and creative track. That way,  the contempt for the people, the misanthropy loses its power.

What does the future hold for Generation Basic Income? If you don’t win the forthcoming referendum, will you continue to campaign?

MW: Generation Basic Income is the main source of this initiative in Switzerland but we’re not bound to the results of the initiative or to borders. We are living the idea of an unconditional basic income. It’s a lifestyle. We are going to continue to engage with the idea and to make it sensible for as many individuals as possible.

Update

The 1:12 referendum was defeated, sadly, by a margin of 66-34 - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swiss-voters-reject-112-proposal-to-cap-top-executives-pay-in-latest-referendum-8960669.html 

"We're facing a shift in what work means and it is this generation that can express this shift." Interview with the group behind the Swiss Basic Income referendum

Orson Welles was wrong. While most of Europe labours under the strictures of a failed and destructive economics, Switzerland shows independence of mind. The country will soon hold two referendums. One will ask whether the pay differential in companies should be set at no more than 12 to 1. The other proposes that all Swiss citizens receive a monthly unconditional, basic income, whether they are in or out of work.

We are not the Beautiful interviewed Enno Schmidt, co-founder of Generation Basic Income, the group behind the basic income initiative, as well as two of its members, Marilola Wili and Che Wagner.

Here is the first part of the interview:

There will be a referendum in Switzerland soon on whether every citizen should receive an unconditional income of 2,500 Swiss francs (£1,711) every month from the government. When will the vote take place and will a basic income be introduced if you win?

Enno Schmidt: How high the basic income will be is not fixed in the initiative. The amount of 2,500 Swiss francs is only an example. The actual amount will be the result of another discussion and vote in the population. What amount allows a life in dignity? These are questions for the democratic process.

It’s not right to say the basic income will come from the government. The government has no money. It will come from everyone in the community and will be transferred through a levy or tax. The government manages money from the population in order to do what the people have entrusted them. We live in illusions. We live in the idea that we are going to work for ourselves because we get an income on which we live. But, in truth, we go to work to do something for others. And we need an income, regardless of that, to live. Basic income means a new look at everything, not a simple belief in what appears in the newspapers. Today, we pay all the taxes in the prices of goods and services. All taxes on income, on corporate profits and so on are included in the prices. But invisible. The tax or duty for a basic income will be paid in the prices of goods and services too. But visible. Perhaps the process is carried out on behalf of the population by a federal office, but it is quite wrong to say that the money comes from the government.

The vote will take place in two to four years. At present the Federal Council is considering the proposal and examining the consequences. Then the Parliament will do the same. Then the vote will be fixed. If a majority of people vote yes, the federal government is mandated to implement a basic income. But that will be many steps, processes of consciousness and votes, away. This is a long journey in which everyone participates. It is not a shock, not a regulation from above.

We offer this idea and make it clear. It is not our gain if the majority wants it.

 See news coverage about the idea

 Is the idea that this monthly unconditional income will replace all welfare benefits?

ES: The principle is that each person receives this basic income, unconditionally, regardless of how one lives and what one does. It is set to be high enough to live on and to last a lifetime. What happens then? Today’s benefits, up to the amount of the basic income, fall away. The principle of social assistance or welfare benefits remains. But it will be much less necessary.

What else will happen? Income from labour will be renegotiated. With a basic income, I can say no to a bad deal. And yes to what I really want. With a basic income I already bring an income to employment. Earned income is supplemented with the amount of income that secures my existence. Good work that people like to do, will be cheaper. Poor work that people do not like to do, will be better paid, because no-one can be blackmailed with their existence to do it. Basic income does not necessarily mean more money. It is the unconditional nature of the income that is important. Only someone who has little today will have more money in their pocket with a basic income.

Your group, “Generation Basic Income” has submitted 100,000 signatures to force the referendum to happen. Did it take a long time and a persistent campaign to collect them?

Marilola Wili: It did take a long time to actually get the collection of signatures started. The collecting campaign started in April 2012 and, after the first few months, there was not too much happening on the streets. That’s why we founded the Generation Basic Income in September 2012:  to spend all of our energy on the most important part of the Initiative’s history: collecting those 100,000 valid signatures. Due to the fact that almost all of the work related to collect Swiss citizen signatures was voluntary, our most important virtues were fun and focus on the beauty of this process. We designed little competitions or the format “100 times 100”, where 100 people assured to collect 100 signatures within a certain timeframe and invited them to celebrate those 10,000 signatures in the best hotel in town.

In December 2012 Generation Basic Income decided to get the signatures by April 21st, half a year before handing them in. With that, a boost of engagement was set free and on the day, accompanied with a live-ticker, all of us energetically collected signatures to reach this goal. One of the keys of our success lies in our name: not only is it a political question but we’re facing a shift of the paradigm what work means to us, and it is this generation who is ready to express this shift.

ES: Many people have collected signatures, many older people too. And some, very bravely, alone. Generation Basic Income has put the salt in the soup. It was not easy to find this many signatures. We are not many but we have persevered and continued with a strong will. In the end, we have collected 142,500 signatures, 100,000 are necessary. But only 126,000 are valid [the population of Switzerland is about 8 million].

Is there a groundswell of support for a basic income in Switzerland?

Che Wagner:  For the collecting campaign we always talked about 500,000 people who would sign as soon as you asked them directly. Our job was to reach them in the streets, at railway stations, public squares, on festivals or within families. My experience during all these thousands of encounters was often a spontaneous support. But after a while I met all the arguments, which insist that a basic income is impossible. Nobody is capable of ignoring this idea because it is pointed towards every single person. So, by collecting the signatures I had the impression that the more someone knows about the idea, the more he is empowered to support it, too.

“Generation Basic Income” is the generation that already feels what it is to live a life in the mindset of an unconditional income: to actually do what you want to do and to insist on what you want to stand for. Those are the people who are our groundswell and this is a fast-growing generation.

ES: I don’t think there is a greater groundswell of support than in other countries, but in Switzerland there is direct democracy and therefore we have a good cultural conversation. In Germany, for example, when one speaks of the unconditional basic income, many people immediately think that once again something will be decided over their heads. In Switzerland, people listen and think about it because nothing will happen if they do not want it. They are politically sovereign.

There is a great deal of international interest in the Swiss referendum. Can you say in which countries this is strongest and whether you know of others that are likely to follow the Swiss lead?

CW: With our money pile performance we wanted to provoke the media and the international community to acknowledge this historical moment with a unique picture. But I am still amazed about the strong and enduring reaction the handing in of the referendum had. Apart from Switzerland and other central European countries, there was a big interest coming from the East, with Russia Today (RT) broadcasting directly on site as well as Chinese media. Then, there was response from the Arabic press, which was surprising. The strongest response I felt was coming from some Balkan states, especially Croatia, Slovenia and Macedonia, where the idea of a basic income turned into quite a national debate a week after the performance. These debates were also boosting the European Initiative to collect 1 million signatures within the EU with the aim of having a debate all over Europe.

Now, several weeks after the event on October 4th, the media response is shifting to the English-speaking world including Great Britain, Australia and the US. There, you can sense that it’s rather an intellectual sphere that is willing to discuss such an issue rather than the broad public.

From the beginning, Germany was the strongest ally in our Swiss initiative. Throughout the campaign, there were Germans involved. I have the hope that not only will basic income become stronger as a topic, in Germany and elsewhere, but also the great tool of direct democracy will attract attention, because it is definitely the key to this whole process. 

ES: I think the most important message of this successful initiative for unconditional basic income in Europe is: direct democracy through referendum – so that the population can implement ideas and it is democratic. Governments in Europe are divorced from the population. You have opinion polls but the population has nothing to say. The lobbies have something to say, however, and money rules. False ideas of economy apply the thumb screws. Basic income is Enlightenment, it is an evolutionary revolution. We are always told we have democracy, but we don’t. Politicians do not want a direct democracy because they will lose power. The basic income strengthens the individual because it speaks to him. It dares a person to think for themselves, to take seriously what one perceives and feels.

Why do you think a basic income is necessary now?

MW: Never in world history were there more products produced, or services delivered and money circulating, than in present times. In Switzerland, and in all western countries, we live in total abundance rather than in scarcity. There is way more than we actually need for consumption. At the same time people live often in fear not to get enough or even are forced to live in poverty. This is a paradoxical situation: Large parts of the people in western societies are living far from the actual reality in their mindsets.

The idea of unconditional basic income helps to uncover this big misunderstanding of our current reality and helps to let go this unproductive and even dangerous fear of scarcity. This idea is able to make things visible and then unpredictably sets human forces free in ways one may have never thought about.

ES: With a basic income people get to what they really want and find important. So much of life is wasted and so many talents remain untapped if we hold to the old ideology of gainful employment and full employment in gainful employment. Lives have fractures; you do not stay in one job all your life. There is a lack of attention, of time for people. This rationalisation puts a limit on living. “We cannot solve today’s problems with the thinking that has brought on these problems,” said Albert Einstein. Basic income is new thinking.

Here is Part two